Board Thread:General Grimm Discussion/@comment-26516813-20151015022913/@comment-26235944-20151024085029

HowtobeaGrimm wrote: Pick any ethnic, religious, sexual, occupational, territorial group you wish and you can find people who have committed crimes and escaped the punishment of the law. Wesen are in that regard no different. No...Wesen are different; they have abilities that normal humans don't have. When they use those abilities to commit a crime, then they have the advantage there, because their extraordinary abilities cannot be brought up in our courts...no one would believe it. You can't arrest a Ziegevolk for example, for jury tampering when he used his abilities to influence a jury...how would you prove it? You can't arrest a Varme Tyv for freezing someone to death...because how would you prove it? HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: 2) If you can't present forensic evidence then that's a good argument for not prosecuting them at all. Right. Which is what Nick does...often. HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: When DNA first became scientifically traceable all sorts of cases were retried because it was found that the scientific facts did not match with eyewitness testimony or assumptions on the part of the prosecutors.

Yes, I would say if you can't prove it by forensic means you don't kill people because they "don't look right to you." Unless of course Nick is infalliable. Is that the message of Grimm, that Nick is a superhuman being who cannot make mistakes or have prejudices or ever be wrong? So you're saying that until the public knows about the Wesen world, and is aware of all the various Wesen abilities, so that their abilities can be brought up in court, then dangerous Wesen should be allowed to get away with whatever the hell they want to do. Okay, got it. But I cannot think of a single instance where Nick killed anyone because they didn't "look right". I can't even think of a time when Nick killed someone who wasn't trying to kill him, or someone else. You care to give an example of that? HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: 3) What authority does the Wesen Council have in democratic American Portland?  Do we give every nationality diplomatic immunity from laws here and send them back to their home countries? Do we have a separate court for the clergy like the ecclesiastes courts of the middle ages. How about certain courts for doctors only judged by other doctors, truck drivers only judged by other truck drivers, Bauerschwein courts to decide on the guilt of Bauerschwein who torch Blutbadin's houses?  Are Wesen people deserving of rights? Or are they not?  That's a lot of questions. I'll answer them in order: No, the Wesen Council has no authority here. Yes, we give diplomatic immunity to foreign diplomats...but other foreign nationals are subject to our laws the same as we are. The clergy get tried in court if they have broken laws. Doctors...in cases of malpractice, are only held accountable for actions that are "outside the proscribed practices" of their profession, but in all other things they are tried according to the same laws as the rest of us. As to your hyperbole about truck drivers and Bauerschwein...no, if they are committing un-magical crimes then they can get prosecuted like anyone else. When I used the term 'Wesen Court' I meant that Nick has no way of presenting evidence to prosecutors to explain the supernatural nature of what Wesen are capable of doing.

HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: Lurkenfrau wrote: What would you suggest Nick do...turn a blind eye to dangerous Wesen who were harming or killing others?

Is that my only choices? Tyranny or anarchy? Either kill all Wesen deemed by Nick's decision to be the "enemy" or do nothing at all? How about arresting the Wesen who are harming or killing others, and let the community decide, i.e. the police, the courts, etc. rather than one man being judge and executionor.

That's what Nick does, whenever he can...and I'm really not sure what you're referring to with "kill all Wesen". When exactly does Nick do that? Are you referring to when Nick went to the Compound in 'Cry Havoc'? If so, then yeah...that was a little over the top. But they killed his Mom. And put her head in a box. So he was pissed. :D HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: Lurkenfrau wrote: And how many people had Juliette killed?

Granted, some of them were in self defense...but not Kelly, and Juliette was as responsible for her death as the ones who did the deed.

5) If Juliette had been arrested would the Portland courts have convicted her of first degree murder in the case of Kelly Burkhardt? That's the only circumstances which would bring her the death penalty?

Or is it a matter of vengence on Nick's part because Kelly was his mother. Should the victims of the crime be the only ones to pronounce sentence? Mind you, this is the way blood feuds get started. You killed one of mine, so I kill two of yours. Vengeance? Yeah, I think that was part of it. But Juliette was the one who was acting out of vengeance first...it was her misplaced, irrational quest for vengeance that got Kelly killed and led to the events of that night. HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: Lurkenfrau wrote: Nick covered up Juliette's other killings...do you think that Nick should have arrested her and let the courts decide?

In a word, Yes. And how would he have explained that she exploded a guy's head...or overpowered a Manticore and used his stinger to kill him? How could Nick even explain why Juliette was with them at the Wesenrein Tribunal? HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: Lurkenfrau wrote: Juliette had threatened to kill Adalind and his child, in a police station, in front of witnesses.

OMG it could only have been worse if she had threatened them in a church! Seems to me Nick had plenty of witnesses to get a restraining order on Juliette or we could just preemptorial kill people who make threats against someone who gets pregnant by their significant other. The floors of the police department would be flooded with blood and there would be many motherless children. Uh, no...the fact that Juliette threatened to kill, in a police station, in front of officers of the law, exhibited a disregard for the law and illustrated the seriousness of her threat. If you're going to threaten to kill someone, the last place on earth you should do it is in front of police officers. HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: Lurkenfrau wrote: Nick knew that Juliette had killed others, so he had reason to believe that she would kill Adalind and the baby too.

Well then let's kill everyone who we "know" has a tendency toward murder in their heart. Real crimes are unimportant. Thought crimes are what should be punished. Again with the hyperbole. Juliette had already tried to kill Adalind...with the Gargoyle. That was an action, not a "thought crime". HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: Lurkenfrau wrote: Juliette also used her powers to try to kill Monroe...should he have arrested her for attempted murder?

That would have been traditional in a civilized society. But then I forget Monroe is special. He is a god. Attempting to kill him is worse than attempting to kill any other person in the world. If you threaten Nick's friends then you are beyond the pale, you have committed a sin too great for you to receive justice. No...the key part of that question was "used her powers". How would Nick explain that she used her powers to take control of him and shoot at Monroe? He couldn't. HowtobeaGrimm also wrote: Lurkenfrau wrote:

And when did Nick ever take bribes or profit in any way from illegal Wesen activity?

That's your argument really? Nick never took bribes so killing people is ok? No, not what I'm saying at all. You were the one who said that Nick was the same as Renard, when he took bribes. Nick hasn't done that. HowtobeaGrimm also wrote:

You do realize you are giving all the reasons for rule by the tyrant and against rule by law or democracy, or reasoned judgement? You can do that. I mean most people in the world seem to believe that way. You would not be any different in your emotions. And besides Grimm is a work of fiction. What people enjoy in fiction has no connection to their values in the real world. Since you bring up "tyranny"...what about the tyranny of Wesen using their abilities on others, knowing that they can't be prosecuted for it? Tyranny is the unrestrained exercise of power over others. This is the very essence of tyranny...and lawless Wesen do this, knowing that they have the advantage of their abilities being a secret. So in this regard, Nick as a Grimm, is what stands in the way the tyranny of Wesen lawlessness. And yeah, Grimm is a work of fiction. You are the one who is accusing Nick of acting like a "Godfather" and a tyrant, for his actions as a fictional Grimm who is dealing with fictional criminal monster-people.